I feel like we should at least consider that DJI is a mainland Chinese company and nearly all drone innovation in the past decade has originated there. They are no strangers to extreme manufacturing or advanced automated drone technology.
Quadcopters are actually insanely simple devices. I dont think the west would have any issue making hundreds of thousands of them without the help of china. Maybe the chips could be an issue but im sure taiwan would be happy to provide.
The future of drone warfare will be determined by software. That’s the one thing where the US still have a huge lead.
We don’t have a lead in software and for an Unmanned Aerial System we need hardware with the software.
In terms of future AI stuff maybe, but for current year practical purposes there is no relevant difference in software capabilities for controlling a bunch of drones in the way it is being done in ukraine.
The Ukrainians are controlling the drones one at a time. One drone, one pilot, operating remotely over wireless link. They’re having an absolutely devastating effect on Russia’s troops and equipment.
Autonomy is the future. It’s how you get to thousands or even millions of drones without the need for millions of human pilots. Trying to attack into a space which is defended by millions of drones absolutely will be a hellscape!
The hard part of good automation is onboard sensor processing. Takes a reasonable amount of compute onboard, which is expensive. Im told the US has a fat wallet though.
They’re already working on autonomous drones. That’s still in its early stages but that will be a decisive factor in the future.
Dji has the best drone software as well…
I dont think the west would have any issue making hundreds of thousands of them without the help of china.
Insanely simple devices still require a certain minimal amount of materials and manpower to assemble. The terrible secret of the Chinese economy is that they simply have more people doing more manufacturing labor. Sure, they often have state of the art equipment and a robust, heavily industrialized logistics system (one reason why western efforts to pivot off-shore manufacturing to Indonesia, Malaysia, India, and the Indochina Peninsula haven’t been particularly successful). But first and foremost, you need physical labor. Americans don’t have a superabundance of domestic labor, so they’re not capable of rapidly churning out lots of low-cost, disposable weapons systems at a rate comparable to the Chinese mainlanders.
And that’s before you get into the cost of deploying, maintaining, and upgrading a large network of low quality units over a long time frame. Imagine building and deploying an entire fleet of Mark 1 Defense Drones to the island, only to discover a major security vulnerability that renders them easily inoperable. You’ve got hundreds of thousands of these units in the field, all of which need to be recalled, patched, and re-tested. That takes manpower, too.
The reason these low cost easily distributed systems work for, say, Houthi Rebels and Palestinian dissidents is that they’ve got these diffuse cells of insurgents with very little else to do except fight. These large ad hoc guerrilla forces are more a consequence of the deplorable state of the local economy than the fighting power of the region. Idle hands, etc.
Americans don’t have that. We’re at near full-employment. We can’t peel off a tens of thousands of young men to go work on the drone assembly lines without suffering economic shortfalls. Hell, neither can Israel, which is why their domestic economy is tanking while they try to make war with virtually all of their Arab neighbors.
The Chinese economy has capacity to spare. The American economy does not. That’s the same problem the Japanese ran into during WW2, and a big reason why they got washed in Mainland China after a decade of horrifying genocidal occupation.
Its funny but when I think of drones and innovation I don’t think of china. China just mass produces but for the most part when the current class of true drones were being created I remember a lot of amateurs working on it and others, china being one of them stealing the base tech. Just like 3d printing.
China just mass produces but for the most part when the current class of true drones were being created I remember a lot of amateurs working on it and others, china being one of them stealing the base tech.
Wait… you think amateur hobbyists out in the American suburbs are inventing new forms of independent flight technology from kits they bought on Amazon. And then some of the largest and most well-financed universities in the world are stealing the technology?
Just purely out of curiosity, who do you think Mingjing Qi, a professor of energy and power engineering at Beihang University stole this schematic from?
Nope. I was involved and it was people all over the world who started building autonomous and semi autonomous drones them starting back in the mid 2000’s when cheap inertial and gyro stabilizers started appearing. I remember the open source projects that eventually matured into commercial products. China was by no means at the forefront of that. It was hobbyist the world over. Some were students at universities. Some lived in the suburbs and villages and big cities. The world over. Way before the alpha tech in that article. That they have taken those first steps and mass produced them by no means implies they invented it all.
it was people all over the world
:-/
What planet is China on?
China was by no means at the forefront of that.
I’m assuming you’re saying this as a Beihang alumnus?
You know they can’t include Chinese innovations if they want to single out China and make them the enemy. The fact is the Chinese own 90% of the consumer drone market because of their innovations. I assume they have good military drones too.
When I think of China I think of serious medical innovations including the cure for fucking HIV and herpes. Idk that they are so great with robotics but I wouldn’t really underestimate them.
Those are being tested, not proven treatments for those diseases.
A few people have been cured of HIV from bone marrow transplants but it has to be a super specific set of circumstances like their blood type has to be a certain type and things like that.
And you don’t find that remarkable compared to before, when no one had been cured?
So completely not true… there have been multiple cases. First, apparently https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Ray_Brown
cnn.com/cnn/2019/09/13/health/china-crispr-hiv-intl-hnk
The argument isn’t whether the west has innovation, it’s whether China does, and they do including this cure for HIV which doesn’t rely on donor cells unlike the London & Berlin patients
I think of thieves and I am not underestimating them nor am I giving them credit for most of things they ‘discover’ Since its based on tech they stole. I also know that much of the HIV research did not originate in china.
It’s just not true to say that China is relying on copying other’s technology anymore. In the last decade, they’ve caught up and are now at the cutting edge of research in many fields. I think this shift is catching a lot of people off guard including many western journalists and pundits.
Japan, and S. Korea used to be the thieves and copycats, and now China. That’s how these countries keep up with the current techs and build up their foundation for the future technology, and now are surpassing their counterparts. People need to accept that’s how things work and it won’t change nothing even if they keep whining.
The thing with China now is how people has been underestimating them. All they can think are on their human right issues, Uyghur, child labours etc. And they think that China people are stupid, can’t think and can’t innovate. Sorry to say - currently they have the highest ranking for research yield, Scopus and Nature Index, and not to mention how many PhD graduates they are producing each year. Many people are just in denial. By the time they realize the reality, it’s might be too late to hit back.
Hmm, sounds bigoted. One way I can tell this is bigoted, is that you’re making Chinese people out to be both ultra competent (at stealing) while also being ultra incompetent (at science). This boogeyman who will “get you,” but is also way beneath you and who you obviously can “get back,” has existed towards Jewish people, black people, Islamic people, Latinos, women, gay people, etc etc.
All innovations are based on the people who came before us. Or are you saying the West should give all Arabic people the money we make in hospitals since the origin of the hospital is from there and they were originally free. The origin of our numbers themselves comes from Arabic countries.
Do you think America’s patent system is just? Do you think the patent system stifles innovation? Do you think the inventors of Crispr Gene Editing have more rights to this bone marrow transplant cure for HIV than the actual people who thought of it and implemented it?
Or are you saying the West should give all Arabic people the money
That’s sort of been our policy with the Petro-dollar since the 1950s. But, tbh, we shouldn’t just stop at hospitals. Since our numeral set is Arabic and modern mathematics is routed in Al-Jabr: The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing…
Do you think America’s patent system is just?
Absolutely. Here, let me dig through my PLEX server, I’ve got thousands of hours of legally acquired videos and pdfs arguing this very point.
Do you think the inventors of Crispr Gene Editing have more rights to this bone marrow transplant cure for HIV than the actual people who thought of it and implemented it?
The people of China should pay the patent holders of the modern iterations of Penicillin, Insulin, and Hormonal Contraception eleventy zillion dollars forever an into perpetuity or voluntarily choose to fuck off and die. Otherwise, I’ll call them thieves and make farting sounds in their general direction.
This, I believe, is what the original pioneers of these medications would have wanted. Same goes for any kind of treatment for current and future epidemics. If an American thought of something first, Chinese people aren’t allowed to have it. And if a Chinese person thought of it first, no they didn’t, they’re not smart enough.
You missed one of my questions
If the US patent system is just, then should we pay reparations to Native Americans and black people?
If the US patent system is just, then Chinese companies could just buy the parents here and be the “inventors” of. Is that just to you? Is it just when Google does it?
if a Chinese person thought of it first, no they didn’t, they’re not smart enough. Yeah exactly, you’re bigoted
There’s such a gulf of difference between a DJI drone and an American Predator or Reaper drone that I actually kinda feel bad for you for bringing DJI into the conversation.
Ever notice how Ukraine has to beg for support but Taiwan has a blank check against a far more capable potential enemy?
Just noticing that maybe Ukraine should start making semiconductors.
I think it’s also that opposing China is bipartisan, but the Republicans take bribes from Putin.
Taiwan does not have a blank check.
The US has backed away from any language of the martial agreements with Taiwan.
Have you noticed how aggressive China has been to Taiwan ? Or is it only bad if it is Japan being aggressive towards Taiwan ?
When was Japan last aggressive to Taiwan? Genuinely curious.
So does Israel. Israel receives checks for weapons and armaments they can resell,
Ukraine receives loans along with the associated debt. It’s a regional power thing for the US, treat certain friendly countries at strategic hotspots in such a way that they hold key industries or resources others have to rely on, creating a situation of mutual dependence and giving an incentive for other countries to also support them. Ukraine has Europe and NATO right beside it, so it’s much less on the priority list for the US.It also creates a bunch of problems, specially when it involves a country that’s borderline religious neocolonialism, and doesn’t work that well against large world and regional powers that are working together like China, Russia, or even Iran.
But Ukraine really does deserve better.
You’re not wrong…
Nations will certainly bend over backward to ensure access to strategic resources. Unfortunately for Ukraine, grain isn’t a highly demanded resource.
Finding some niche technology or product to specialize in would probably be a really good idea. They have experience with rocket engine manufacturing, though that’s not a huge market. I suppose they could always extend that to munitions manufacturing, it seems there’s always a market for that… Sigh…
What a stupid fucking comment. How about you open your eyes bud? We have a lot of business with China, China isn’t posturing with war and crying about NATO expansionism and threatening to use nukes.
Get it yet? Probably not, so I’ll help you some more.
The US can build up the defenses of Taiwan because they have no active warzone/conflict. Taiwan isn’t wanting to strike inside Chinese territory. The US cannot give Ukraine everything they want without restriction (because they DO want to strike inside Russia, and rightly so) without triggering Russian escalation WHICH INCLUDES VARIOUS NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
When NUCLEAR WEAPONS are used, the rest of the world WILL get involved. NATO is not just being a jerk about things for fucks sake.
Ukraine has had massive success with naval drones which I would imagine to translate very well to the defence of Taiwan as well.
The difference between hypersonic missiles and drones is interesting, too. Hypersonics are something a major nation state needs a years long development program to make. They have some inherent issues, like having a limited maneuvering budget without burning themselves up. The response time of defenses are shorter, but existing Patriot missile batteries have managed to deal with them to at least some success.
Meanwhile, Ukraine attaches bombs to some fancy RC planes and sinks much of the Black Sea Fleet. IIRC, they’re up to something like half of it by tonnage, and Russia likely has no way to replace some of the larger Soviet-era ships.
Apparently, there’s more than one way to skin a cat. And some of the ways don’t cost billions in R&D.
Millions of inexperienced soldiers stuck on ships facing thousands of drones coming from all directions -
I…don’t want to imagine the absolute, pure horror that would be.
The fact that the two current superpowers are actually gearing up for war with each other makes my blood freeze.
This would cause global suffering on par with World War 2. Except in World War 2, most battles were still fought primarily with glorified armored tractors, rifles, shovels and horse-drawn artillery.
Oh, and now, there’s the added danger of a nuclear escalation that will literally bomb us all back into the stone age.This is nothing different to what they’ve been doing for the last 20 years
All of this is a lot of flexing, there’s no reason for China to cause massive conflict with the US because both parties would lose in some major ways. Essentially it would just waste resources between the two nations and permanently kneecap both of their economies.
Not to mention that I don’t think any nation is in a position to challenge the US anywhere in the near future. A minor conflict could break out, sure, but an actual war where the US takes the gloves off is not a good idea for anybody.
Wow! I, for one, will plan to be both shocked and awed by the ‘hellscape’.
More like defending TSMC… large majority of all high-tech silicon is made in Taiwan. If that foundry burns, the consequences would be astronomical. The possible consequences are already at a point they could make threats via self-sabotage.
If the hellscape thing comes to pass the structural integrity of any building is probably going to be the least of anyone’s care. Like a drone walk is not going to make people happy about going into a clean room for an entire shift. That will end shortly.
The much more possible possibility is that the plant moves to the US with newer machines.
There are no newer, or any other machines at the level of the tsmc plant. They cost multiple billions for each production line and require parts that take ages to produce (like zeiss mirrors for millions a piece)
It’s not that bad actually. The various mirrors are just some of the most important components. But it’s not the gating item.
My faith that this plan will succeed is a bit shaken by the other news story about the Navy today: the Navy ran out of pants.
We can’t seem to produce enough pants for our sailors and marines, but we expect to produce “thousands upon thousands” of fancy new drones? Well I do hope it all works out, but uh, I guess I’ll just keep my fingers crossed.
You sure they are simply choosing to not wear pants?
I mean, I’m not making any assumptions…
I’m not super knowledgeable about drone operators, but I don’t think you need pants to fly drones.
The folks making pants and the ones making drones are not the same
Manager: Rodney, Rodney what the fuck are you doing?
Rodney: Sweating as he tries to complete a tripple stitch on a pair of Navy Standard Issue Pants. Sorry boss, these pants gotta get shipped today!
Manager: Fuck the pants, Rodney. These MQ-9 Reapers gotta be finished and out the door by noon. gestures to massive pile of weaponry and metal in the corner The Chinese are gonna invade Taiwan!
Rodney: puts pants down Sure boss!
Well, let’s hope.
but we expect to produce “thousands upon thousands” of fancy new drones?
I think Taiwan can absolutely help support the US in producing thousands upon thousands of new drones.
We aren’t gonna produce those drones. We don’t have the infrastructure, China does. When we decided to ban Chinese made drones there were no one capable of replacing them in the consumer space. The ones left in the Blue UAS program pulled out of consumer markets. DJI dominates and that’s just in the consumer market. I wouldn’t sell the Chinese short in military drones.
Where do you think our current drone fleet came from? A hint: it wasn’t China.
The Cherokee Nation. I’ve actually done some work in the drone industry and I know that the Cherokee Nation build drones for Lockheed Martin. The Native Americans are not the American government so they can bypass some tariffs and other legal issues the US government faces with regards to import export. We still don’t have the infrastructure of China. We don’t have the manufacturing base in this area that China has. Don’t look down on China, they are innovative in drone technology. The companies in the US needs to get a innovative as the Chinese one but for that we need the same support from our government that the Chinese get to create the missing infrastructure that China has.
Well, DJI has the market cornered in quadcopter/multirotor drones. But what do they have with wings?
From the sound of it, this program is also quite interested in vehicles with longer loiter times and heavier payload capacity (winged aircraft). And they’re explicitly interested in seeding smaller companies with funding that would allow them to realize whatever innovations they may have and scale up. So with that in mind, it may be irrelevant that DJI dominates the multirotor drone market.
I guess we’ll find out in time.
The problem is neither of us know what the true capabilities between the two nations are. Obviously they keep that intel under lock and key and if either of us had inside knowledge and revealed that knowledge then the respective nation would come after us.
I find these discussions on military capabilities to be pointless on Lemmy and Reddit. No one actually knows and if they did they can’t say anything, there are too many people pretending to know what they’re talking about speaking with authority but are making everything up, and though you can gain some insight on a nations capabilities by paying attention to news and media that focus on military technology no one actually cites those sources.
Protecting Taiwan would be one of the most important tasks to accomplish.
Dude. Don’t pretend to be bad now. Our best drones are regularly being shot down by goat herders. Lol.
Exciting new rendition of the “You’re about to find out why this country can’t afford healthcare” meme is about to drop.
What drones would that be? US drones very, very rarely are shot down.
I saw it in that interstellar documentary.
Wired Magazine - News Source Context (Click to view Full Report)
Information for Wired Magazine:
MBFC: Left-Center - Credibility: High - Factual Reporting: High - United States of America
Wikipedia about this sourceSearch topics on Ground.News
https://www.wired.com/story/china-taiwan-pentagon-drone-hellscape/
yes… to “defend” Taiwan, LOL
Yes. Defend Taiwan from a Chinese invasion that threatens their sovereignty. One that is continuously threatened by China and one Taiwan actively prepares for.
Yes. Defend Taiwan from a Chinese invasion that threatens their sovereignty.
Yes. Defend Taiwan from a Chinese invasion that threatens
their sovereigntythe USA access to the main semiconductor manufacturer in the worldFIFY
Why not both!
Fair… But you really can’t have a democracy when it’s results depend entire on pleasing your modern day colonizer
Just look at South America
The US just want to be the next China for Taiwan…
That would be dumb. Taiwan is a better asset if they have an independent government that’s on the same page geopolitically. Australia bucked the USA’s geopolitical agenda, and they got couped.
That would be dumb. Taiwan is a better asset if they have an independent government that’s on the same page geopolitically
Which is why the US wants to “defend democracy” there, that is clearly what I mean… they want a Taiwan that is subservient to the USA, not an independent Taiwan that would actually be independent
Australia bucked the USA’s geopolitical agenda
I don’t understand what “bucked” means in this context
In this context the Australian people voted for an administration that would no longer “co-operate” with the USA’s geopolitical aims, they “bucked”/rejected the agenda. The USA responded by pressing those in power to create a constitutional crisis and replace the administration.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional_crisis
I guess my point is that America doesn’t engage in the same tactics as China does in regards to Taiwan, or that hemisphere, probably because of distance. The USA favors regime change over making a new colony.
Thanks for the info
That’s a complete load of shit and you know it.
no, you are right… track record shows USA is interested in defending other countries for the sake of freedom, liberties and the American way… not at all for self interest
No country takes action based on moral grounds. They only take action for their self interest. This is international relations 101. Sometimes these align! Sometimes… not so much.
What Taiwan has done is made the “good” outcome (Taiwan remains free and independent) align with the US’s self interest (having computers and a tech based economy).
The US will always exert power over Taiwan, so will China. That’s just what great powers do. However, China doesn’t need to threaten an invasion to do this. There is no reason China can’t relinquish their claim on Taiwan and just build a casual trade relationship with Taiwan.
However, China doesn’t need to threaten an invasion to do this. There is no reason China can’t relinquish their claim on Taiwan and just build a casual trade relationship with Taiwan.
Not justifying China’s methods or intentions at all, but you know what you are claiming is impossible
The USA can (and has before) forbidden third parties to run businesses with other countries… As they have already done to China itself.
It would be completely naive for China to assume they won’t be cut off from the very valuable industry Taiwan has once the USA establishes itself as the sole/mayority buyer
Wake me up when CNN anchors start referring to Taiwan as “West Hawaii”
Nobody said it wasn’t for self interest, it’s just nothing like the situation between Taiwan and China at all. Like not even close. I think you need to inform yourself on some regional history.
Huh? What do you think the nature of China and Taiwan’s relationship is?
Are we the baddies?
Maybe but that would be in spite of defending Taiwan not because of.
I’m not so sure. A majority of people polled in Taiwan disagreed with the US’s approach of a military forward strategy of ensuring Taiwan’s political independence. I believe the reasons the US has not pursued a diplomatic solution is largely because it wouldn’t serve their geopolitical interests. By pursuing a militaristic strategy, they’ve escalated the stakes at the expense of the Taiwanese people and I think Taiwanese people generally understand that.
There is no “diplomatic solution” with regards to Taiwan. As seen in Hong Kong. What China wants, China will take. (This is an acquisition strategy the US knows well too…) Right now a majority of Taiwanese prefer the status quo. That is de facto independence. That does not mean they’d be okay with more interference from China. (It also does not automatically mean they’ll be cool with a war of independence either)
There’s no diplomatic solution if the US decides there’s none to be had and doesn’t even try. Diplomacy fails at times but putting in a serious effort to resolve conflicts peacefully is almost always preferable to the hardships of war. Even if you think the PRC is belligerent it’s worth actually trying.
That’s why Taiwanese people prefer maintaining the status quo. To them it seems like the best of the bad options available to them as long as they have no control over what the PRC or US does.
“There’s no diplomatic solution if the US decides there’s none”… way to remove the agency of the Taiwanese people with one assertion. Well done.
The fact is that deterrence is a valid posture with which to meet a belligerent. And if the Taiwanese decided a rapprochement with China was the right choice there is nothing the US could do about it. But that is not what they want.
Is the ‘we’ you are referring to china? If so, then yes you are. Bunch of cry babies who can’t accept that Taiwan is not theirs and never was. The government of Taiwan predates their government.
I’m not sure you want to stake the validity of Taiwan’s independence on the fact that Chiang Kai-shek’s fascist dictatorship predates the PRC. lol
Sure sure, cause that freedom loving mao was such a benevolent leader. /s
I suggest you admit that the age of any particular government is irrelevant to its legitimacy before defending fascists. It’s not that hard.
They can’t wait to start another proxy war, this time with China. They are encircling China with military bases and outposts and then constantly harp on “China’s aggression”. Fucking disgusting.
Chinese aggression like ramming ships in international waters where they are making imperialistic claims to territory that doesn’t belong to them? Yeah.
And the many many ‘shipping ports’ they’ve built for poor nations with contracts that state they will gain control in the event they can’t pay. Just a coincidence all those ports are also capable of docking war ships.
Must be coincidental that China has a tendency to forgive foreign loans
Maybe read your article.
“China’s announcement did not specify the countries or the amount of loan forgiveness, but analysts say that since 2000, China has regularly forgiven loans that are nearing their end but have a small balance.”
China has regularly forgiven loans
Too easy, next
China
Too easy, next.
See what I did there? Any moron can cut a sentence to pretend to make an argument.
And checking out the global warming level to see if they can melt the ice cap so they can ship temy products via the northern seas? Yup
moron alert
Couldn’t possibly be because Taiwan’s TSMC plant holds significance… NO! It is instead all about proxy wars!! EnCiRcLeMeNt!!!
If any countries need to have an eye kept on them and a contingency plan for them should shit go south it’s fucking China and Russia.
List the number of wars, conflicts or proxy wars China was involved with the last 50 years. I wonder what it is about those people that makes you think they are so untrustworthy and dangerous? Like contrary to actual historical facts of who is dangerous and kills people and destroys countries.
Why?
Did you know that Trump was never actually President? Hillary was President and he whole time. She actually still is.
